Curse

SotiCoto · Oct 17, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Half time recharge on skills doubles their damage output. 33% recharge is a 50% boost. That's a significant difference.

To be honest.... I'm fairly certain Searing Flames can still out-do that.

... And I'm also fairly certain that 50% faster recharge does not mean things recharge twice as fast, but rather 1.5 times as fast.
Likewise, 33% faster recharge does not equal 1.5x recharge but rather 1.33x recharge.
That makes for a difference of 16.5% .... which honestly isn't all that much.

Ensign · Oct 17, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

The point of Aggressive Refrain should be to build up adrenaline/energy fast in a support build.

So you're saying that you think Paragons should be bad?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Shadow Form cannot be permanently maintained now.

Yay!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

... And I'm also fairly certain that 50% faster recharge does not mean things recharge twice as fast

Yes it does.

SotiCoto · Oct 17, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yes it does.

O RLY?

Then what would 100% faster be?

Watch my maths carefully:
50% of 1 is 0.5
1 + 0.5 == 1.5
1 + 0.5 =/= 2

shirosae · Oct 17, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

"50% faster recharge" in Guild Wars language means "-50% recharge time". It's half.

This is why +33% attack speed results in +50% attacks (because it's -33% cycle time). Guild wars counts all percentages from the base, up and down.

100% faster recharge time would be an instantaneous recharge, because it'd remove 100% of said recharge.

LuckyGiant · Oct 17, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

O RLY?

Then what would 100% faster be?

Watch my maths carefully:
50% of 1 is 0.5
1 + 0.5 == 1.5
1 + 0.5 =/= 2

Of course it doesnt equal 2 when you're using 50% :P

100% of 1 is 1
1 + 1 = 2

unienaule · Oct 17, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

OK, so, if your original recharge was 10 seconds, and now it's 5 because of 50% less recharge time, in that same 10 seconds, you cast 2 of the original skills. 2 divided by 1 is 200% instead of 100%, which means you doubled your damage output.

For the 33% example, if your recharge is now 6.66 seconds, 10 divided by 6.66 is 1.5.

Shadow Form's old recharge under this skill was 30 seconds. It is now 40.

SotiCoto · Oct 17, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Alrighty....

I just checked in-game (because naturally I don't trust any of you)... to see which of the two possible conclusions to this mess of language would be right.

Shadow Form under Deadly Paradox took 40 seconds to recharge..... hence the conclusion is that the skill is labelled incorrectly... or at the very least awkwardly.

In effect... it had to either be the mechanic or the language that was being cited by people here that had to be correct, and it turned out to be the mechanic. Afterall, 50% faster than 100% (normal) would be 150% overall, and not 200%... which is misleading.
Perhaps if they were referred to in terms of time in the description rather than speed (which is effectively the inverse) then it would make more sense.

In any case.... I'm now seeing at least WHAT is happening, irrespective of what the skills or anyone else says is happening.... so this little subtopic can be dropped.

Would someone mind describing:
#1. How Shadow Form can still be permanently maintained (as has been claimed)....
#2. What the heck is the deal with the recharge indicator glitching after Arcane Echo reverts? If I had a means of making a video of it then I would, but the recharge-indicator for Shadow Form jumps when Arcane Echo reverts.

unienaule · Oct 17, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Shadow Form under Deadly Paradox took 40 seconds to recharge..... hence the conclusion is that the skill is labelled correctly and works the same as every other recharge-reducing skill in the game.

That looks better.

SotiCoto · Oct 17, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

That looks worse.

Corrected.

Every skill thus labelled in the game is labelled misleadingly.
Afterall.... it wasn't until today that I actually took the time to measure how long Shadow Form took to recharge under Deadly Paradox, and always assumed it took 45 seconds before (rather than 30 seconds)... as would any other rational-minded person reading the description.

Longasc · Oct 17, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Seems you are the only rational-minded person here, because you were the only one that did not get it!

BlackSephir · Oct 17, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Total and utter obliteration.

Shadow Form cannot be permanently maintained now.

Yes, it can, just tried it.

Winterclaw · Oct 17, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

How is it that sassi's can attack in shadow form, but water el's can't in mist form? SF needs to be nerfed.

Ulterion · Oct 17, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

As far as I'm aware.... the other builds "abusing" (lolz) Deadly Paradox weren't doing it to maintain something constantly so much as make something 0.5x faster than it was originally meant to be. I heard it made Dancing Daggers quite dangerous (heard MANY complaints about that).
Now it just happens to be slightly less fast than it was but still 0.33x faster than it was originally meant to be.

Unless these "abuse" builds were centered around maintaining permanent Shadow Form in PvP (which, given the exceedingly low offensive potential of such a thing, would only be useful for griefing... essentially) .... then I fail to see how it is that much of an issue.

Dancing daggers vs Life Bond + additional buffs (Deadly? I think not!)

Chthon · Oct 17, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Alrighty....

Shadow Form under Deadly Paradox took 40 seconds to recharge.....

Would someone mind describing:
#1. How Shadow Form can still be permanently maintained (as has been claimed)....

I second this request. We see people claiming it still works:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Yes, it can, just tried it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

As I thought, the Deadly Paradox nerf didn't do anything to keeping up permanent Shadow Form. Just tried it with my sin and after 5 minutes in SF I had convinced to myself that it's still totally doable, so please stop complaining and check your timing

On the other hand, I wonder why anybody would want to bring into a PvP match a build that is totally trashed by a single sig of humility ...

But no account as to how.

Holly Herro · Oct 17, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Why nerf deadly paradox? I think no one uses it for PvE or PvP..

Besides the shadow running thing

Winterclaw · Oct 17, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Because griefers in PvP used it to maintain SF and you can only kill them if they mess up their timing or you just happen to have the one skill on your bar that could hit them through SF.

SotiCoto · Oct 17, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

How is it that sassi's can attack in shadow form, but water el's can't in mist form? SF needs to be nerfed.

Does Mist Form leave you with just 40 health when it ends?
I think not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Because griefers in PvP used it to maintain SF and you can only kill them if they mess up their timing or you just happen to have the one skill on your bar that could hit them through SF.

And the almighty A-Net happened to nerf the very best skill for doing that so that it no longer could.
GG Skill Balance: Chilblains is now effectively worthless.

What the sweet heck was the point in that anyway?
If they wanted to kill Shadow Form so badly then couldn't they have left in-game one of the key removers of said skill?

Just for the record....
On the whole irrational +50% = 2x thing .... does that mean Dash = 2x as fast rather than 1.5x as fast? ... For that matter, does it mean that Critical Agility = 1.5x as fast attacks rather than 1.33x?
Since when did 50% extra free = 2 for the price of 1?

BlackSephir · Oct 17, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

That's why I don't get why they changed Chilblains

makosi · Oct 17, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holly Herro

Why nerf deadly paradox? I think no one uses it for PvE or PvP..

Besides the shadow running thing

A/Mo Dancing Daggers lamers abused Deadly Paradox.

It was highly prevelant in RA,TA and even HA.

Mork from Ork · Oct 17, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I second this request. We see people claiming it still works:

But no account as to how.

you need max in shadow arts to get shadow form to 21 sec. Add enchanting weapon to stretch it to just over 25 sec.

Arcane echo gives you 20 secs after you first use shadow form before you must use it again or lose the echos That gives a total of about 45 secs covered by sf

deadly paradox means shadow form recharges 40.2 seconds after use add in the cast time of about a second and you recharge in just about 42 seconds

You have to have very careful timing but you hit dp/ae/sf count 20 seconds and hit echoed sf

count about 21 seconds and hit dp/ae/sf again

it's dicey but you can do it. You only have about 3 seconds total leeway anywhere in there so given any lag or slightly slow human response time it's pretty challenging.